1patterson Is Faith Rational?--truth is not simply an academic concept.

Join Date: July 8, 2004 Posts: 1,349 Religion: Catholic loyal to the Pope, don't even try to change me!

Re: Is Faith Rational? Take faith out of the picture and what's left makes no sense at all. Looked at another way..... The universe makes no sense without God. __________________ Norman "Someone who wants to do the will of God has an unconquerable ally. Theresa can't be defeated." --- Father Donoughty, Empress Theresa "What am I supposed to do, change the laws of physics? This is the most impossible problem yet." --- Theresa ( she solves the problem )

#32   Apr 23, '13, 5:04 pm

Hamlet123 Junior Member   Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 208 Religion: Catholic

Re: Is Faith Rational? Quote: Originally Posted by Michael Allen Personally, I didn't reason myself to faith. I would not say, therefore, that the basis of my own faith is a rational one. But, having said that I think faith can be rationally defended, and is not contrary to reason. So, for me, faith is rational but does not necessarily have a rational basis, if you see the distinction. How does it go? One has faith in order to be able to be rational..... or something like that

#33   Apr 23, '13, 5:31 pm

John Martin Junior Member   Join Date: May 5, 2010 Posts: 152 Religion: Catholic

Re: Is Faith Rational? Quote: Originally Posted by devonsams Hey, I would like you guys could help me with this one: Is faith rational? I mean, can we say that our faith is rational? And it has rational basis? Or it is irrational? Thanks Faith, as a Virtue, is a Habit, a habit whereby we know how, and do, believe in the God of Christ as True (and all he entails in Scripture and the Tradition). And, combined with the habit of believing in Jesus as True, this habit, or Virtue, of Faith also declares to our Will that this God and all about Him are Good. It is, then a habit of believing God is True and that being united to Him is Good. It is a habit of the reason. It's counterpart, Hope, is a habit of the Will, which loves and hopes in what the reason judges good. Faith is rational in light of its happening in the reason. It is a habit that we use, as opposed to a habit of doubting that things about Jesus are true. And the reason, by design, will reject what it cannot, by syllogism, regard as truth. The big player in the syllogism is the person of Jesus. He, his reality, his person, is outside us, facing us. Somewhere along the line we end up regarding Him as true, and regarding that it is good being with Him. And as we know him, we start to understand all that he taught. If you are asking, "is it reasonable to have the habit of faith?" The answer is "no" in so far as it is not possible apart from God to have the habit or use it. This habit was infused into you when you were baptized / confirmed. Since it was one of the graces infused into you, you have the habit, and the inclination with it, to hear and understand that what is from God is true. This does not mean you will use this habit, but it is yours, and when you use it, you find it is like second nature to believe in this God, and understand it is good to be united to him. John Martin

#34   Apr 23, '13, 6:15 pm

jhchadwick Observing Member   Join Date: February 26, 2013 Posts: 1 Religion: Catholic

Re: Is Faith Rational? First these are the definitions I'll use: Rational: looking for truth without bias, examining all the evidence Faith: belief and trust in and loyalty to God Faith is not rational in that few people in a religion are looking for truth about who is God, particularly if Jesus is God or not. Most simply follow what they have been brought up with. However, recognize that all major religions share so many common positive characteristics. I agree with others who state that the question put is not relevent. However if you approach faith rationally as you would other topics, where would you be? Consider distinguishing between belief in God versus belief in various events in history. A recent event might indeed be your car's breaks being fixed. Is there a difference? In both cases we are going by what others have written or said. My faith is rational since I looked for evidence that God exists. After studying those who claim to have spoken with Jesus or Mary, particularly saints and recognized seers, I believe and trust in God. Others do not need that rational. Fun discussion, I enjoyed reading many ideas on this topic.

#35   Apr 23, '13, 7:59 pm

nmgauss New Member   Join Date: September 7, 2012 Posts: 5 Religion: Non-denominational

Re: Is Faith Rational? Faith is "Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof". This definition I found on Google. If no proof is needed, then truth cannot be arrived at by reason. We often hear of blind faith. This is based on mysticism or an emotional feeling that influences ones belief. The Sufi cult of Islam and the Kabbalah cult of Judaism emphasize getting in touch with God through concentrated praying and rituals. Reason does not enter mental processes in these efforts. These are esthetic pursuits without any goals for proof. No proof has been given that there is any phenomenon called art or music. We accept these concepts because of our esthetic appreciation of them. The same can be said for faith. In such situations, religious experiences are emotional and esthetic in nature without the need for rational proof to believe in them.

#36   Yesterday, 11:51 am

Dan Grelinger Regular Member   Join Date: March 14, 2007 Posts: 665 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: Is Faith Rational? Quote: Originally Posted by nmgauss Faith is "Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof". This definition I found on Google. If no proof is needed, then truth cannot be arrived at by reason. That is the most ridiculous and biased definition that I have seen of faith. It does not even deserve to be referenced and I would question the integrity of anyone who would write such or reference it in seriousness. Here are much better definitions for faith, from dictionary.com 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. 3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims. 4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty. 5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith. Are any of these irrational? Absolutely not a one! If faith is irrational, then so is confidence, trust, hypotheses, estimates, conclusions, fundamentals, assumptions and principles. I suggest that it is impossible to prove much of anything. Examine any proof, and you will find assumptions and principles that must be accepted before such proof is even possible. And yet, because of our faith in all that is unproven to us, we are still able to live our lives, go about our business, and actually do things of merit. It is only faith that allows this. Will the sun come up tomorrow? Will I die in my sleep tonight? Only faith gives us a definitive answer. Science gives us an indication, but no proof. It is only by faith that we continue on. And if you want to see an example of the most blinded faith, just look into the eyes of an atheist when he is trying to explain why he BELEIVES that there is no god.

#37   Yesterday, 12:02 pm

1patterson Trial Membership   Join Date: April 24, 2013 Posts: 5 Religion: orthodox

Re: Is Faith Rational? Quote: Originally Posted by devonsams Hey, I would like you guys could help me with this one: Is faith rational? I mean, can we say that our faith is rational? And it has rational basis? Or it is irrational? Thanks t truth is not simply an academic concept. The way we think about truth has a direct bearing upon the way we live our lives. What's more, our understanding of right and wrong is directly dependent on our worldview: is the universe God's creation or a closed cosmic cube? http://youtu.be/E8wk5OSuDaM

#38   Yesterday, 1:17 pm

ffg Junior Member   Join Date: November 29, 2012 Posts: 246 Religion: RC

Re: Is Faith Rational? Quote: Originally Posted by devonsams Hey, I would like you guys could help me with this one: Is faith rational? I mean, can we say that our faith is rational? And it has rational basis? Or it is irrational? Thanks I use what I would consider a rational train of thought when defending or doing my part in this fight. (using history and logic to deduce Truth) I find it funny when people who think they are rational thinkers write off history to defend their bubble logic. In these cases, especially online, you just don't get a response, most of the time.

#39   Yesterday, 1:24 pm

nmgauss New Member   Join Date: September 7, 2012 Posts: 5 Religion: Non-denominational

Re: Is Faith Rational? Dan Grelinger has replied in a judgmental way by using the terms "ridiculous" and "biased". This is counterproductive. In order to keep this forum from becoming a shouting match, please don't let your emotions get the best of you. Now as to the question, "Is Faith Rational?", since this is a religious website, the term "faith" should be used in that context. Here is a quote from Wikipedia: "In religion, faith often involves accepting claims about the character of a deity, nature, or the universe. While some have argued that faith is opposed to reason, proponents of faith argue that the proper domain of faith concerns questions which cannot be settled by evidence." For reading on the history of reason vs. mysticism, see "History of God" by Karen Armstrong. She is a thorough scholar and this book is a masterpiece.

#40   Yesterday, 1:52 pm

ffg Junior Member   Join Date: November 29, 2012 Posts: 246 Religion: RC

Re: Is Faith Rational? Quote: Originally Posted by nmgauss Dan Grelinger has replied in a judgmental way by using the terms "ridiculous" and "biased". This is counterproductive. In order to keep this forum from becoming a shouting match, please don't let your emotions get the best of you. Now as to the question, "Is Faith Rational?", since this is a religious website, the term "faith" should be used in that context. Here is a quote from Wikipedia: "In religion, faith often involves accepting claims about the character of a deity, nature, or the universe. While some have argued that faith is opposed to reason, proponents of faith argue that the proper domain of faith concerns questions which cannot be settled by evidence." For reading on the history of reason vs. mysticism, see "History of God" by Karen Armstrong. She is a thorough scholar and this book is a masterpiece. I would agree with Dan that the earlier definition you provided is pretty poor. Let's analyze - Faith is "Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof". So you are saying with "Faith is" that you agree with this text. Strong - what basis does it have to be strong? belief in God - probably the most simplistic definition of Faith, could just end there. or in the doctrines of a religion - please provide the religion that has no god or God. If Atheism is thought, we could argue for hours about that the god of Atheism is whatever is important to the person. Based on spiritual apprehension - Since apprehension has multiple meanings, I'm guessing you do not mean taking a criminal into custody, so the definition is basically saying that out of fear or of something bad. rather than proof - Here is where the person creating the definition writes off world history and the events that have happened in time in order to substantiate what they want people to think is a fact - that people are religious out of fear, an opinion. Yeah, "ridiculous" and "biased" sound about right.

#41   Yesterday, 2:06 pm

Roscoe Turner Trial Membership   Join Date: April 24, 2013 Posts: 17

Re: Is Faith Rational? Quote: Originally Posted by ffg or in the doctrines of a religion - please provide the religion that has no god or God. If Atheism is thought, we could argue for hours about that the god of Atheism is whatever is important to the person. Buddhism is non-theistic.

#42   Yesterday, 2:10 pm

clem456 Regular Member   Join Date: March 28, 2012 Posts: 2,105 Religion: Catholic .

Re: Is Faith Rational? Quote: Originally Posted by Ismael Faith is not just "placing trust" of "believe what someone says" It's also believing IN. Take the differece if someone says: Peter I believe you Peter I believe IN you. I like this. Based on this, is it fair to say that faith implies a relationship with a person (God) rather than simply and solely (not excluding, don't all jump on me), a set of doctrines? This has huge implications. __________________ Charity before clarity!!

#43   Yesterday, 2:12 pm

ffg Junior Member   Join Date: November 29, 2012 Posts: 246 Religion: RC

Re: Is Faith Rational? Quote: Originally Posted by Roscoe Turner Buddhism is non-theistic. Point taken. The key is the apprehension, that turns the definition into an opinion.

#44   Yesterday, 3:24 pm

Dan Grelinger Regular Member   Join Date: March 14, 2007 Posts: 665 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: Is Faith Rational? Quote: Originally Posted by nmgauss Dan Grelinger has replied in a judgmental way by using the terms "ridiculous" and "biased". This is counterproductive. In order to keep this forum from becoming a shouting match, please don't let your emotions get the best of you. Now as to the question, "Is Faith Rational?", since this is a religious website, the term "faith" should be used in that context. Here is a quote from Wikipedia: "In religion, faith often involves accepting claims about the character of a deity, nature, or the universe. While some have argued that faith is opposed to reason, proponents of faith argue that the proper domain of faith concerns questions which cannot be settled by evidence." For reading on the history of reason vs. mysticism, see "History of God" by Karen Armstrong. She is a thorough scholar and this book is a masterpiece. Yes, I pass judgements on ideas and motivations. Show me one who does not, and I will show you intelligence and reason wasted. It is good to see that you too make judgements. To call me out required you to make a judgement of my post. And I applaud you, rather than criticize you for it. Not that I believe that you are correct, but at least you made a judgement. Emotional? No. I base my judgements of baloney and bias on reason. Challenge my reason instead of pooh-poohing the fact that I come to conclusions, and you will win my respect. What questions can be settled entirely by evidence? I have found very few. Therefore, faith is necessary in practically every human endeavor. In this post, you suggest that faith = mysticism. I suggest that unveils further bias. I don't equate the two. They have entirely different definitions. Mysticism 1. the beliefs, ideas, or mode of thought of mystics. 2. a doctrine of an immediate spiritual intuition of truths believed to transcend ordinary understanding, or of a direct, intimate union of the soul with God through contemplation or ecstasy. 3. obscure thought or speculation. Mysticism necessarily involves faith. Faith does not necessarily involve mysticism. Everyone has faith. Not all are mystics. Logically, you may not equate the two, and attempting to do so suggests either bias or confusion.

#45   Yesterday, 3:36 pm

nmgauss New Member   Join Date: September 7, 2012 Posts: 5 Religion: Non-denominational

Re: Is Faith Rational? Roscoe Turner mentioned Buddhists as being non-theistic. Major aspects of non-theism can be found in Hinduism, Sikhism, Jainism, Shintoism, and Confucianism. Some have argued that Confucianism is not a religion because there no concepts of faith or the after life. Hinduism has no central authoritative teaching on the concept of faith with the result that it has a large variation in beliefs from sect to sect. In fact, in Karen Armstrong's book "History of God", only Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are focused on GOD. Without any incontrovertible proof that there is such an entity as GOD, five of the world's religions do not promote faith in the existence of GOD. Is this because nothing on which to base rational conclusions has been identified, or is it because faith has to be established as a state of mind acquired by prayer and meditation?