Catholics and the Crusades and more May 21 byworking4christ2 Rate This [QUOTE]Hello there, it’s —— from Catholic answers.

Catholics and the Crusades and more

 

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[QUOTE]Hello there, it’s —— from Catholic answers.
I am indeed speaking partly about the Crusades. I can’t help but notice that the CC hasn’t always been perfect in it’s actions and if possible, people who knew the Bible would have realized that what the Church was doing at the time was un-Christian and would have separated themselves from it. As literacy and printing press increased it only made sense that people who read the Bible would separate themselves from a single authority.[/QUOTE]
Hi ——,
Thanks for entering into discussion with me.
1^st. The Crusades: http://www.thearma.org/essays/Crusades.htm
This site reflects my own understanding of the Crusades. If my memory is correct [I’m 68 and have been out of history classes for a very long time.] But the Church was at least at first defending itself. As a much younger man, I enjoyed history, but that’s along time ago.
“Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War. Christianity—and for that matter any other non-Muslim religion—has no abode. Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule. But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Mohammed was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years.”
What I highlighted was true 1,000 years ago, and it remains true in the present day as well.
That is NOT to claim a higher-ground position that claims there were not abuses. Of course there were. BUT this leads to the next point. People do sin!
From my many years of teaching , sharing, explaining and at times defending my Catholic Faith; I have found one of the most commonly misunderstood things by Protestants in general, hold views of the CC which simply are not true; not factual.
It’s a profound Theological issue. There is; has always been and always will be a separation between “The Church” and the PEOPLE within the church. They must be separated because while people can and do sin [Catholics, even clerics included]; “the Church”; is a living entity. But even as such it is impossible for Her [Mother Church] to sin. This is a critical distinction and an all together necessary understanding.
The ONLY time “the Church” can be blamed [or for that matter, credited] is in relation to her formal Teachings on All Faith matters to be believed; and ALL Moral issues. And this is a solidly biblical position.
Only the Catholic church has the Holy Spirit AND Jesus Himself as WARRANTY of Her absolute inability to teach in error on ALL matters of required Faith belief And All Moral matters.
John 14: 16-18 “And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. .. The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you.  I will not leave you orphans, I will come to you.”
John 20;21-22 “He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. [Mean with His own Godly Authority and Powers]When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost”
John 17:14-20 “I have given them thy word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world; as I also am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil. They are not of the world, as I also am not of the world. Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for them do I sanctify myself, [GIVE MYSELF AS THEIR WARRANTY] that they also may be sanctified in truth. And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me”
Next: The issue of bible reading.
It is true that prior to Luther’s announced plan for a New Protestant / “common language” bible, that the CC taught that the bible was NOT to be read by the uniformed; un or under- educated. WHY?
2^nd. Peter 3: 14 -17 “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability
2^nd. Peter 1: 16-21 “You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,  because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”
Acts 20: 28-30 Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, [singular] which he hath purchased with his own blood. I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Douay Rheims Bible
One can, in hindsight, which is often more revealing than the decision made at the time, look at what has happened within the Protestant churches where there are VERY many differing views, position and understandings accepted, and taught on the same identical passages, when “ Only One POSSIBLE, Truth can exist.
Keep in mind also this mandate predated the “period of enlightenment” which was only dawning at the time.
John 10:16 “And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd”
Eph. 2: 20-23 “Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone
: In whom all the building, [singular] being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord. [singular] In whom you also are built together into an habitation of God in the Spirit.”
Psalms 127:1 “Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.”
Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
Eph.3:  9 to 12 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: meaning  THE CATHOLIC Church] the  manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him
Matthew 4:4 “Who answered and said: It is written, Not in bread alone doth man live, but in every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God”
Matt.13:9-12 “He who has ears, let him hear.” Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.”  For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. “
If one reviews the biblical facts, one can determine God’s Will being defined as:
One God [Triune] Good and Perfect
Holding Only One set of Faith beliefs , in both the Old and New Testament times. God simply cannot as a Moral and Theological impossibility, hold different views [many even contradictory], on long defined issues.
And Only One Chosen people: in the OT and under the Old Covenant; The Jewish nation; and later expanded to ALL of His One set of Faith believers throughout the Entire world, in and under the New Covenant. … Mark 16:14-15: “At length he appeared to the eleven[Apostles] as they were at table: and he upbraided them with their incredulity and hardness of heart, because they did not believe them who had seen him after he was risen again. And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature.  And again in Matthew 28:16-20 “And the eleven disciples[Apostles] went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”
If your still doubtful about this, may I suggest you READ Matthew 10: 1-8; John 14: 16-17; John 20:21-22. This expansion mentioned in the above two references, compared to Matthew 10: 8-10, to NOW and forever include the entire world; indicated Christ having Himself instituted papal succession. [Yes I know the term “pope is not in the bible; but then again neither is the term ‘bible” in the Bible.]
Eph. 4: 1-7 “I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
Lastly: Your final comment has proven to be true
. It is also Spiritual Suicide for countless souls. And this is no less true today, than in the period of the Protestant revolution. Christ ONLY founded One New Faith and One new Church. Easily provable within the Bible itself. Therefore what the Catholic Church has always, with consistency, convection, and Guarded and warranted by the Holy Spirit and Christ personally, relating to what ACTUALLY IS essential for ones POSSIBLE and very conditional salvation; along with the very key’s to heavens access [Mt. 16:15-19], remain exactly where God placed them, and wants them to be. In today’s Catholic church[s].
Because one “can” has never meant that one “SHOULD.” Human nature is weak; deformed, an seeks naturally an easier way; a short cut. What di Christ say about the Narrow gate?
Matthew 7:11-15 “If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him? All things therefore whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you also to them. For this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” END QUOTE
Christ founded only One church and one set of Faith beliefs. A historically and biblically provable fact. This was about 2,000 years ago and the CC is still the largest Christian religion in the world. Despite her many defectors and detractors.
So my FRIEND, who founded your church; and when?

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Recently I entered into a debate on “when the Sabbath” day ought to be?

A Provocative POST Response in Christian Charity

May15 by working4christ2

 

 

 

 

 

 

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A Provocative POST Response in Christian Charity
As a FYI to sort of set up this post, I’m occasionally active on a Christian Forum; used mainly by non-catholic-Christians.
Recently I entered into a debate on “when the Sabbath” day ought to be?
In my post I attempted in the limited space permitted, to point out Christ Devine Will for One God; One Faith and One Church, giving [Mt. 15:15-19 & Eph. 2:4-8] as evidence. I spoke of “the key’s” to heavens access being entrusted to Peter.
Below is the response I received and my REPLY to it.
[QUOTE]Peter, oh yes I remember him. He was the ONLY person who was ever called Satan in the entire Bible and called that by none other than God the Son. Impressive I must say, and then you say a church was founded on him? It sounds to me like founding a church on a guy called Satan is not a good idea especially when he is a sinner just like the rest of us. I am going to stay away from that church.
This is the same Peter who wrote a whopping two books of the NT, TWO whole books, WOW. Paul wrote 13 which is almost 32% of the entire NT. Show me where Peter ever claimed to be the chief among the apostles? Where did he claim to be the number one apostle. Show me where he is called the super-apostle. Just because he is listed first in the two times where the apostles are named means nothing after all SOMEONE had to be listed first.[/QUOTE]
I can provide a biblical accounting of 50 “Peter FIRST”. Space prohibits me doing so here. May I suggest you read carefully Mt.16:
I’m duly impressed with your bible content knowledge. I fear however that it’s not supported by right understanding. Please permit me to demonstrate this with the two examples you gave.
Rom. 13:10 “The love of our neighbour worketh no evil. Love therefore is the fulfilling of the law” John 13:35 “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.” Friend; lets play nice. And I will tie this in to your Sabbath discussion.
[BIG smile here]
Very good! You do Know your bible. And I suspect you would agree with this definition of Jesus? “Jesus/ God is ALL Good things perfected.”
Your well chosen point; in the reflected light of a necessarily “Good and perfect God” prompts the necessary  question: [caps for emphasis not shouting]
Is  a Partial Truth equal In Every Way to the Entire Truth [which must be singular]? No, it is not.
When we return your passage to its original context; the clarity of Christ comment becomes more clear, and a vastly different lesson emerges. It is paraphrasing what Christ DID SAY to Satan when He; Christ was tempted in the desert.
Mt. 4:10 below. In verses 21-22 Christ had just revealed that he MUST Suffer; Die and rise again on the 3 td. Day. V.21-22 “From that time Jesus began to shew to his disciples, that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the ancients and scribes and chief priests, and be put to death, and the third day rise again. And Peter taking him, began to rebuke him, saying: Lord, be it far from thee, this shall not be unto thee”
Peters message here is one of love and compassion. He had just proclaimed
[inspired by God the Father v.17; that Christ WAS/ IS God!] He was saying “YOUR GOD! YOU CAN CHANGE THIS” and Christ in effect tells Peter that this is why He choose to become Incarnate. 
Matt. 4:10“Then Jesus saith to him: Begone, Satan: for it is written, The Lord thy God shalt thou adore, and him only shalt thou serve” … Matt. 16:23 “Who turning, said to Peter: Go behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal unto me: because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men”
Matt. 16:21-22; 23 “From that time Jesus began to shew to his disciples, that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the ancients and scribes and chief priests, and be put to death, and the third day rise again. And Peter taking him, began to rebuke him, saying: Lord, be it far from thee, this shall not be unto thee” v23: Who turning, said to Peter: Go behind me, Satan, thou art a scandal unto me: because thou savourest not the things that are of God, but the things that are of men”
John 12:46 “I am come a light into the world; that whosoever believeth in me, may not remain in darkness” John 18:37 Pilate therefore said to him: Art thou a king then? Jesus answered: Thou sayest that I am a king. For this was I born, and for this came I into the world; that I should give testimony to the truth. Every one that is of the truth, heareth my voice. John 16:28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again I leave the world, and I go to the Father.
1 Tim. 1:15 A faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief”
Romans 1:25 Jesus speaking “Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen”
Acts 20: 28-30 ”Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, [singular] which he hath purchased with his own blood. I know that, after my departure, ravening wolves will enter in among you, not sparing the flock. And of your own selves shall arise men speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Douay Rheims Bible
John 17: 12-22 “While I was with them, I kept them in thy name. Those whom thou gavest me have I kept; and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, [Judas] that the scripture may be fulfilled. I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil. .. Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [HERE JESUS GIVES HIMSELF AS THE WARRANTY OF CATHOLIC TEACHINGS ON ALL Faith & Moral issues] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me; That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou hast given me, I have given to them; that they may be one, as we also are one”
John 21:14-17 “This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to his disciples, [Apostles] after he was risen from the dead. When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. He saith to him again: Simon, lovest thou me? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs. Jesus said to him the third time: Simon, son lovest thou me? Peter was grieved, because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus said to him: Feed my sheep.
John 10:16 “And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd”
Eph. 2: 20-23 “Built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone
: In whom all the building, [singular] being framed together, groweth up into an holy temple in the Lord. [singular] In whom you also are built together into an habitation of God in the Spirit.”
Tying into the Sabbath debate
As I attempted to do in my previous post; it is clearly biblical and Christ desire for only one God; One set of faith believes and One church. In handing “the key’s to The KINGDOM of God”; entrusting them to Peter; our Good and Perfect God could not error. Jesus HAD TO then provide Peter with the necessary means to Govern this New one Church; which IS indicated in the unlimited Powers and Authority granted in
verse 19. The power to “bind and Loose,”  which has 2 meanings; the first of which is Power to make laws and to void laws. It was a COMMON Rabbinical & enforceable at Jewish Law granted to the “keeper of the key’s for walled in cites” [as Jerusalem was]; and this person reported ONLY to the “king.”
Devine Worship is commanded in the First Commandment
Sabbath Observance is extensively covered In Exodus chapter 16 and other places.0
Exodus 16:30 “And the people kept the Sabbath on the seventh day?
What some fail to acknowledge is that the “B.C” Before Christ / AD ”After Death” Calendar, used throughout the world today, did not come into existence until around 1582 [AD]. So the seventh day was in a bit of flux. What is important to God IS NOT the day of the WEEK; but the Observance a set DAY EACH WEEK; set aside for Worship and Rest.
God Bless you. May I ask are you a Baptist or Fundamentalist Christian?
patrick68
　
　
　
　
　

　

　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　
　

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0 comments to A Provocative POST Response in Christian Charity

1. 1prettyboypattersonpatterson says:

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   May 16, 2013 at 4:08 pm

   where are the “signs and wonders” of your ministry?
   what did the Holy Spirit tell you to say?? it seems you are just on these forum’s to expound on your personal opinion and commentary..
   1 Corinthians 14:25-27 (New International Version) – Bible Gateway
   http://www.biblegateway.com..‎
   as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!” Good Order in.
   Interview with Lady Revivalist Kristina Waggoner
   [youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsB93HBXVn8&w=560&h=315%5D
   For more details and to ask Kristina ay questions, please visit the Blog:
   In this interview mother and BSSM
   (Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry)
   graduate Kristina Waggoner shares incredible testimonies of God’s supernatural power manifesting in normal day situations and 2 keys on how any believer in Christ can step into a supernatural lifestyle.
   You don’t want to miss what happened when she went to the Emergency Room and began to pray for the sick there!
   
   

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You are being asked to login because 1prettyboypatterson@gmail.com is used by an account you are not logged into now. By logging in you'll post the following comment to Did You Know Judaism Was a Missionizing Religion?: so does that mean– that the religious organization and ceremonies were put into place by consrtatine ? in a sence producing the rituals of the catholic church sermonical sacraments? i guessing that there was some benefit for pagan worship– just as there is benefits for catholic worship ? what research have you written on this ?

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By logging in you'll post the following comment to Did You Know Judaism Was a Missionizing Religion?:

so does that mean– that the religious organization and ceremonies were put into place by consrtatine ? in a sence producing the rituals of the catholic church sermonical sacraments?

i guessing that there was some benefit for pagan worship– just as there is benefits for catholic worship ?

what research have you written on this ?

so does that mean– that the religious organization and ceremonies were put into place by consrtatine ? in a sence producing the rituals of the catholic church sermonical sacraments?

i guessing that there was some benefit for pagan worship– just as there is benefits for catholic worship ?

what research have you written on this ?

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible?

pablope Regular Member   Join Date: September 29, 2010 Posts: 5,075 Religion: catholic

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible? [quote] Quote: Originally Posted by Cachonga It's obvious that I consider my interpretation as adequate before God. I don't see how I arrive at this conclusion to be part of the topic. It is always an issue of authority. Quote: I will simply say that I passed reading comprehension in school. Well, at least I got past tweflth grade.... Quote: I do look at the CCC when I need to, but generally, unless I'm directed to specific paragraphs, I will not look at it. Since the topic (as I understand it) is limited to the Scriptures ("Is Purgatory in the Bible?"), I saw no need to look at the CCC (especially since I am aware of the more common Scriptures pointed to). Since you have looked at the CCC, then you will know it has Bible references and ECF writings. Quote: This is true, we all use interpretive traditions, and I have no problem admitting mine could be fallible (that's why I study and engage in these types of discussions), It rebounds again, and again..to an issue of authority. Quote: While it's not the topic, I am curious as to how you know that your "interpretation" of the infallible teachings of the Church are also infallible. For example, can you (or anyone else) infallibly interpret the dogmatic declaration of Mary's perpetual virginity? Of course, as I've said, this is off topic, so please don't answer on this thread (feel free to start a new thread and I might join in). I believe it's something to think about. You mean dogmas and doctrines? They are arrived at through the various councils of the church...and are let known through the Magisterium. Do you remember the example of St. Paul, in Gal 2:2? http://www.mark-shea.com/tradition.html The HS guides the Church...into all truth on faith and morals and we confirm ourselves to the teachings of the Church.

#62   May 1, '13, 3:17 pm

pablope Regular Member   Join Date: September 29, 2010 Posts: 5,075 Religion: catholic

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible? [quote][quote=Bodyandblood999;10692551][quote=pablope;10682647] Quote: My friend, I'm amazed. Of course I am clean enough to stand in his presence! Well...brother...you just committed the sin of pride...in judging yourself...and went against the Bible...from Rom 14..v22............happy is he who has no reason to judge himself for what he approves. With your pride...how can you now stand in the presence of God? Quote: That is what happened the moment Christ saved me and washed me. I still sin, but my standing before God this very moment is as righteous as that of Christ, and that is true for every born again person. Can you reconcile the following with your statement above: Paul is saying the opposite of what you are saying: 2 Cor 7:1 7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and of spirit, making holiness perfect in the fear of God. 2 Tim 2:21 All who cleanse themselves of the things I have mentioned will become special utensils, dedicated and useful to the owner of the house, ready for every good work. And James: James 4:8 Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. And John: From Rev 7........14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Quote: That is exactly what justification is all about, According to you....according to your interpretation. But then the question...why should you be believed?

#63   May 1, '13, 3:22 pm

Razanir Regular Member   Join Date: September 16, 2012 Posts: 720 Religion: Catholic

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible? [quote=pablope;10693276] Quote: It is always an issue of authority. . [quote=pablope;10693342][quote][quote=Bodyandblood999;10692551] Quote: Originally Posted by pablope Well...brother...you just committed the sin of pride...in judging yourself...and went against the Bible...from Rom 14..v22............happy is he who has no reason to judge himself for what he approves. Seriously, guys. Can we please start cleaning up the heads of our posts before hitting submit? It's getting annoying having to sift through all the unclosed [quote] tags to figure out which one is mine __________________ "My soul belongs to God, I know/ I made that bargain long ago" -Les Misérables St. Cecilia, pray for us

#64   May 1, '13, 4:57 pm

Gabriel Serafin Regular Member   Join Date: January 31, 2009 Posts: 652 Religion: Catholic

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible? Quote: Originally Posted by Bodyandblood999 I Cor 3 is not talking at all about someone being burned. He is using a metaphor about what we build with our life and service... Notice it doesn't say they will be saved THROUGH fire, but "AS ONE"... The Greek is better represented in the New American Standard Bible: "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so AS through fire." Yes, obviously it is a metaphor. The "fires" of purgatory are an analogy of the purification that the soul goes through. Purgatory means purification--as in purgation. Purgatory is a spiritual state. Quote: Originally Posted by Bodyandblood999 The things that born again people have done through faith in Christ will produce eternal reward. The key is to understand what faith in Christ entails. Jesus Himself teaches that in order to be saved one must repent, turn away from sin, believe in the gospel, deny one's self and carry one's daily cross and persevere until the end. He also said that some would receive the Word of God with great joy, yet would fall away when trials and tribulations and anxieties came their way. He also warned that not everyone who says :"Lord, Lord" will be save, but only those who DO the will of His Heavenly Father. Furthermore, Jesus is very stern when He warned in a parable: In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart." --Matt. 18:32-35 What do you think Jesus means when He said: "until he should pay back all he owed."? Quote: Originally Posted by Bodyandblood999 Sorry, Hebrews says, "It is appointed unto men once to die, and then the judgement." Yes, and this ties in perfectly with the description of Purgatory in 1 Cor. 3:13-15 Understand once and for all that all the souls who make it to Purgatory were judged and saved, but still had to be purified from some degree of imperfection or worldly attachment. So after being judged, some souls will fall into this category: "If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so AS through fire.". In other words, they are saved but have to be cleaned up before seeing God.

#65   May 1, '13, 5:04 pm

Cachonga Regular Member   Join Date: March 23, 2009 Posts: 919 Religion: former roman catholic

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible? Quote: Originally Posted by Darryl B I find that quite ironic since you are the one denying Church teaching and then try to reinterpret 1 Cor 3 in a means which suits your own fallible opinion? Really? Do you feel comfortable with that logic? Yes! Quote: I am not interpeting anything, I am merely pointing out the connection. I think the Church does not have an official statement on every single verse in the Bible. Do you? I know the Church hasn't defined very many verses of Scripture. My point is that you are giving your own opinion, which is just as fallible as mine. I'm sure you have just as much confidence in your opinion as I have in mine. How's that for irony! Quote: Originally Posted by pablope It is always an issue of authority. So I've noticed. Quote: Since you have looked at the CCC, then you will know it has Bible references and ECF writings. And I';m crazy enough to look up the references and citations, not just quotes, but I will actually read around the quote (even the entire book if necessary) so I can get the context in which the citation was made. Quote: You mean dogmas and doctrines? They are arrived at through the various councils of the church...and are let known through the Magisterium. Do you remember the example of St. Paul, in Gal 2:2? http://www.mark-shea.com/tradition.html The HS guides the Church...into all truth on faith and morals and we confirm ourselves to the teachings of the Church. This is off topic (as I already mentioned), so I won't engage this discussion on this thread. __________________ If you don't enjoy what you're doing, you're doing something wrong!

#66   May 1, '13, 5:32 pm

Mike SoCal New Member   Join Date: December 13, 2012 Posts: 31 Religion: Baptist

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible? Quote: Originally Posted by graciesings Is Purgatory mentioned in the Bible? If so, where? Confused Protestant Teenager No, a place of purgatory is not in scripture, however, the Bible does say we will be purged of all sin. A place of purgatory is simply an opinion of some theologians. The Bible says: Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

#67   May 1, '13, 6:18 pm

Bodyandblood999 Banned   Join Date: April 24, 2013 Posts: 47 Religion: None

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible? Quote: Originally Posted by Razanir First off, can you please clean up your quotes? I can never tell who's quoting whom, and it gets even more confusing when I quote your posts. That said, if I didn't still have my can of soda at my mouth, I'd probably be cleaning it off my laptop screen right now. I don't care if your sins have been forgiven, do you really think that after sinning for about 70 years (average human life span) that you'd still be clean enough to be with God? It'd be like falling in the mud a few (or a lot of) times walking home and brushing it off each time. Sure you're much cleaner than before, but you're still tracking mud. Corinthians– He has qualified you, yes. That's like getting accepted into college. You still need to choose to go there. And in response to your "spirit of fear" comment. Here's an issue that I see with this type of logic. Oh, that guy's a murderer. But hey, he accepted Jesus. Therefore all his sins are immediately forgiven. AND he only did it the one time so he's probably fine. Sins DO cast you out of Heaven (Or more accurately, prevent you from getting in). But God, in His infinite mercy, is always willing to forgive you if we want to be forgiven. That's the key bit, though. We have to want to be forgiven. I don't know my way around this site, so forgive the requoting. What I do know is someone who has missed grace when I see them. You'll have to swallow a lot of pride, but the result will be an eternity of difference! Some people like to argue with Mormons about odd, wierd aspects of their theology. They do it with Jehovah's Witnesses, too. But their real problem is the same problem all cults and dead religionists have: They may see the black print on white paper, but they have never seen with "the eyes of their understanding" what actually happened on the cross when God placed the sins of the world (all in the future for us) on his sinless Son and poured out every ounce of condemnation He had, on HIM. To them, it seems impossible God could actually be the God of Amazing Grace, and they know they don't deserve to be pardoned. This is why Paul said he was determined to know nothing among his hearers but "Christ, and him crucified." (I Cor 2:2) Those who embrace dead religion simply don't see what the atonement is all about. They are more about law and punishment. So verses like this bewilder them: "Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who DOES NOT WORK but believes in him who justifies the UNGODLY, his faith is COUNTED as righteousness." (Romans 4:4, 5) that, my friend, I justification God's way. And so you might see why Paul could say saints are dead to the law. (Romans 7) Once you understand, you'll know what Paul meant when he said there is NO CONDEMNATION for them. You can stay alive to the law if you want to, but Christ died so you could get what you will never deserve and avoid what you will ALWAYS deserve. No purgatorial fire could EVER satisfy a holy God. Only the blood of Christ. So what kind of work does God require to be justified forever? Let Jesus tell you: "Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”" (John 6:29) Jesus said FEW will find eternal life. You must hear, see, and choose to repent and BELIEVE. The moment you do, "Tetelestai"! "It is finished!" You become an eternal child of the living loving God, and nothing can ever separate you from his love (Romans 8:39) Beats religion every time.

#68   May 1, '13, 9:51 pm

Gabriel Serafin Regular Member   Join Date: January 31, 2009 Posts: 652 Religion: Catholic

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible? Quote: Originally Posted by Bodyandblood999 So verses like this bewilder them: "Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who DOES NOT WORK but believes in him who justifies the UNGODLY, his faith is COUNTED as righteousness." (Romans 4:4, 5) that, my friend, I justification God's way.. Realize that you are confusing Paul's reference to the works required by Mosaic Law. A glance at Romans 3:28 and Romans 4:5 Paul seems to be saying that works are not necessary for our justification or salvation. But all you have to do is examine the context of these passages and see that your interpretation would contradict Paul himself, as well as the words of James 2: "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." Unfortunately many misguided Christians teach the opposite by claiming that we are "justified by faith alone". Paul made it quite clear in In Romans 2:6-8 that good works are necessary for attaining eternal life when one has the opportunity to performing them: "For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury." In Romans 4:4, 5 Paul was writing to a church in Rome struggling with a heretical sect known as the Judaizers who taught that belief in Christ and obedience to the New Covenant was not enough to be saved---and that a man ALSO had to keep the Mosaic Law and be circumcised in order to be saved. Quote: And so you might see why Paul could say saints are dead to the law. (Romans 7) Once you understand, you'll know what Paul meant when he said there is NO CONDEMNATION for them. Again, Paul is speaking about the Mosaic Law Understand the difference between doing good works and the works of the Mosaic Law. Christians must do good works, such as feed the hungry, keep the Commandments, forgive one another, etc. etc. Once you understand this, you will not be bewildered when you read this: "‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven’" (Matt. 7:21). "‘Why do you call me "Lord, Lord," and not do what I tell you?’" (Luke 6:46). "For he will render every man according to his works . . ." (Rom. 2:6-8). "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified" (Rom. 2:13). "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgments . . . (Heb. 10:26-27). "What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" (Jas. 2:14). "So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead" (Jas. 2:17). "But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. . . .Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? (Jas. 2:18-20). "if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."1 Corinthians 13:1-3 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (Jas. 2:24). Quote: Originally Posted by Bodyandblood999 Jesus said FEW will find eternal life. You must hear, see, and choose to repent and BELIEVE. The moment you do, "Tetelestai"! "It is finished!" . Jesus died for every person that ever lived---yet not all will be saved, because all will be judged by their works, as you see in the quotes I furnished above. As for what one needs to do to be saved, let's let Jesus answer this for us: A man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?. . .Jesus replied... If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’” “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?” Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Quote: Originally Posted by Bodyandblood999 You become an eternal child of the living loving God, and nothing can ever separate you from his love (Romans 8:39) Beats religion every time Wrong. Mortal sin will separate you from God every time, because mortal sin is a rejection of God. Simply read 2 Peter 2:20-22: If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. I'm afraid you've been listening to the wrong teachers and bought into their false interpretations.

#69   May 2, '13, 11:18 am

Bodyandblood999 Banned   Join Date: April 24, 2013 Posts: 47 Religion: None

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible? [quote=pablope;10693342][quote][quote=Bodyandblood999;10692551] Quote: Originally Posted by pablope Well...brother...you just committed the sin of pride...in judging yourself...and went against the Bible...from Rom 14..v22............happy is he who has no reason to judge himself for what he approves. With your pride...how can you now stand in the presence of God? Can you reconcile the following with your statement above: Paul is saying the opposite of what you are saying: 2 Cor 7:1 7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and of spirit, making holiness perfect in the fear of God. 2 Tim 2:21 All who cleanse themselves of the things I have mentioned will become special utensils, dedicated and useful to the owner of the house, ready for every good work. And James: James 4:8 Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. And John: From Rev 7........14 I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. According to you....according to your interpretation. But then the question...why should you be believed? Get justification by faith right, and everything else will fall into place. Like I said, it will be humbling, but God "resists the proud and gives grace to the humble." When I said I am qualified to stand in heaven now, it was not pride at all. I deserve hell and always will. But Christ's death took care of that. You have never seen that. I am praying you will. The verses you quote deal with sanctification--our earthly walk--not our STANDING! Paul says we are qualified NOW. Read the Colossians 2 verses and others. You can't deal with the fact that Paul says that, for a born again person, there is NO condemnation. There is good news for you if you will abandon your attempts to get to heaven on your own efforts. John said, in I John, that the moment we (believers) see Jesus, "we will be LIKE Him, for we will see him as He is." (I John 3:3)

#70   May 2, '13, 12:17 pm

Gabriel Serafin Regular Member   Join Date: January 31, 2009 Posts: 652 Religion: Catholic

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible? Quote: Originally Posted by Bodyandblood999 When I said I am qualified to stand in heaven now, it was not pride at all. I deserve hell and always will. But Christ's death took care of that. Well, if you deserve hell, then you are going to go to hell, since God will judge you according to your works. The problem is that you are confusing Paul's reference to the works of Mosaic Law, which we are not bound by. However, as a Christian you still will be judged by your good or evil deeds (works) Once you understand that you will not be bewildered when you read: "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgments (Heb. 10:26-27). "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works. Matt. 16:27 Be careful; pride blinds the mind from seeing the truth.. Last edited by Gabriel Serafin; May 2, '13 at 12:31 pm.

#71   May 2, '13, 2:40 pm

pablope Regular Member   Join Date: September 29, 2010 Posts: 5,075 Religion: catholic

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible? [quote][quote=Bodyandblood999;10696991][quote=pablope;10693342][quote] Quote: Originally Posted by Bodyandblood999 Get justification by faith right, and everything else will fall into place. Like I said, it will be humbling, but God "resists the proud and gives grace to the humble." I think you should take heed of yourself what you said above. Quote: When I said I am qualified to stand in heaven now, it was not pride at all. It is pride...no matter how you look at it, devoid of humility when you make such statements. You are in fact, without realizing it....making presumptions of your own standing and righteousness....and obligating God, telling God..."here I am, I can stand in the room with you"...when you are not sure yourself you are free of your sinful nature.....which one of them is pride. Romans 2: 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” Quote: I deserve hell and always will. But Christ's death took care of that. Only if you persevere and do His will to the end, which do not seem to mesh with your theology. From Heb 10........36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. Quote: You have never seen that . What exactly have I, or any other Catholic here, not seen? Quote: The verses you quote deal with sanctification--our earthly walk--not our STANDING! Paul says we are qualified NOW. That is right...and it does not end...we are qualified...if we persevere...look at Heb 10 and Matt 7:21. At death......how about those that did not finish their sanctification, as per God's judgement....where will they go? Quote: You can't deal with the fact that Paul says that, for a born again person, there is NO condemnation. You need to look at what other things paul wrote: 26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. So what happens if you do not continue in God's kindness? So....what does to be cut off mean?

#72   May 2, '13, 5:52 pm

Bodyandblood999 Banned   Join Date: April 24, 2013 Posts: 47 Religion: None

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible? Quote: Originally Posted by Gabriel Serafin Well, if you deserve hell, then you are going to go to hell, since God will judge you according to your works. The problem is that you are confusing Paul's reference to the works of Mosaic Law, which we are not bound by. However, as a Christian you still will be judged by your good or evil deeds (works) Once you understand that you will not be bewildered when you read: "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgments (Heb. 10:26-27). "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works. Matt. 16:27 Be careful; pride blinds the mind from seeing the truth.. Paul was not at all just talking about the Mosaic law. That is something I have heard from other Catholics, but it doesn't stand when we look at what Paul said. I will show you now, and I pray it will help, but I'm afraid that you may not want the truth if it means swallowing your pride. But here it is anyway. I really want to help you: Notice what Paul says about how he was able to keep the law pretty well, until he considered one of its commands. Was it mere Mosaic law--ceremonial stuff? Let's look.... "For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead." (Romans 7:5-8) See it? What was the command Paul picked out from "the Law"? Was it about eating pork? Wearing two kinds of cloth? No. It was one of the Big Ten! You see, when Christ died, He was punished for ALL my sins, ALL my violations of the Law, and that is why I am no longer under the Law. I will be judged for rewards, according to Paul. I am also to purify my daily life, but not by struggling and striving to keep rules. That is "the old way of the written code" Paul references above! I serve in newness of the Spirit, and it is AWESOME!! Motivation AND power to become more and more godly in my walk. But Paul is saying that, whether I score a 99 or a 59 in the Christian life, my rewards may be burned up to a degree, but my STANDING with my loving Father who slayed his Son for ALL my sins can't be touched. THAT is what Paul means by NO condemnation!

#73   May 2, '13, 7:04 pm

Gabriel Serafin Regular Member   Join Date: January 31, 2009 Posts: 652 Religion: Catholic

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible? Quote: Originally Posted by Bodyandblood999 Paul was not at all just talking about the Mosaic law. Don't be silly, Jesus did not do away with the 10 commandments. I am curious, why do you ignore the mountain of quotes---including the words of Christ ---in order to make your interpretation make sense? The quotes I gave you contradict your interpretation. Furthermore, the Law is now written in the hearts of men, thus we will be judged when we break that law. That's why adulterers, thieves, fornicators, etc etc will NOT enter the kingdom unless they repent, turn away, and stay away from sin. Quote: Originally Posted by Bodyandblood999 Notice what Paul says about how he was able to keep the law pretty well, until he considered one of its commands. Was it mere Mosaic law--ceremonial stuff? Let's look...."..if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead." (Romans 7:5-8) See it? What was the command Paul picked out from "the Law"? Was it about eating pork? Wearing two kinds of cloth? No. It was one of the Big Ten! Don't be silly, Jesus did not do away with the 10 commandments. Why do you think Jesus explicitly states one must keep the commandments in order to gain eternal life? If people followed your interpretation, they would have to ignore Jesus' teachings. Paul is simply explaining that the law was the only way he could learn what sin means. Here again is Jesus reminding you that you must keep the commandment: A man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?. . .Jesus replied... If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” (Matt. 19:17) Quote: You see, when Christ died, He was punished for ALL my sins, ALL my violations of the Law, and that is why I am no longer under the Law. I will be judged for rewards, according to Paul. Jesus died and paid the price for all sins, past present and future-- yet many will still be condemned. This is because in order to be a disciple of Christ one must repent of sin and turn away from sin. And if one falls again into the same sins, one must continue to sincerely repent and avid those sins. For example, if you look at pornography, or fornicate, or commit adultery, in order to be saved you would have to repent of those sins and do them no more. If you were to fall back into it, then you will be lost unless you sincerely repent again.. Quote: I am also to purify my daily life, but not by struggling and striving to keep rules. I think you need to read your Bible more carefully. Paul himself states: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27)" Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. Quote: Paul is saying that, whether I score a 99 or a 59 in the Christian life, my rewards may be burned up to a degree, but my STANDING with my loving Father who slayed his Son for ALL my sins can't be touched. THAT is what Paul means by NO condemnation! Now you're putting words in Paul's mouth. Again, here he is talking about the Commandments of God, not Mosaic Law: "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified" (Rom. 2:13). The problem with self-appointed freelance Bible interpreters is that it leads to heresy and false teaching... Last edited by Gabriel Serafin; May 2, '13 at 7:17 pm.

#74   May 3, '13, 9:52 pm

Bodyandblood999 Banned   Join Date: April 24, 2013 Posts: 47 Religion: None

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible? Quote: Originally Posted by Gabriel Serafin Notice again how you keep ignoring the clear passages which contradict your interpretation of Sacred Scripture. Understand that we are saved by God's grace. Grace is a gift, which eempowers us to repent and turn away from sin. But as any gift, it can be rejected--- and many people do--they rather keep living sinful lives. We are all sinners, but that's out struggle---to become sanctified through God's grace which empowers us to say NO! to sin. Thus over and over in Scripture we read about how we must keep the Commandments. But as we grow in faith and love for Christ, we keep the commandments out of love for God, and not a mere fear of hell. But one thing is clear: if you want to have eternal life, keep the commandments -Matt. 19:17 If you love me, keep my commandments.-John 14:15 If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love-John 15:10 And by this we know that we have known him, if we keep his commandments. 1 John 2:3 In this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God, and keep his commandments.-1 John 5:2 Understand once and for all that Jesus never handed out Bibles; instead He established His Church to teach in His name throughout the ages until the end of time, despite wolves and the weeds in every generation, which abound in both the clergy and the laity. It was through the Church that we have the Bible in the first place. The mistake you are making is to take the Bible and try to interpret it as you see fit. That is a recipe for error. For example, people have argued against the doctrine of the Holy Trinity by using Sacred Scripture (i.e., Jesus' words stating that the Father is Greater than He" in John 14:28) The Sacred Tradition of the Church had always taught the divinity of Christ, thus it defined the doctrine of the Trinity as Dogma, when heretics were using the Bible to argue against it. This is known as the Arian heresy. The law had not been dealt with while Jesus was on the way to the cross. Only after the resurrection could it be stated that "there is,therefor now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus." The only question is, are you in? If you are, either God lies, or NO condemnation EXISTS for you. That is what Paul means by saying we serve in NEWNESS OF THE SPIRIT rather than oldness of the letter--no more fear--we've been adopted by God! I fully agree that salvation is a gift by grace, and that God gives us repentance AND faith! He wants us to experience progressive sanctification. Those who know they have been FOREVER freed from fear of condemnation are the only ones equipped to be sanctified. If you tell someone they better stop coveting or ELSE!.....Paul says that causes them to sin MORE! (It did to him) The Law, when it comes in contact with a sinner, actually stirs up sin! (Romans 7) It doesn't work for preventing sin. But LEGALISTS think it does. And I agree that only those who continue in the faith were really saved. Praying a prayer or getting baptized doesn't save you. Faith in the blood of the cross saves you, and it regenerates and a new heart is created that WILL produce good works, more and more.

#75   May 3, '13, 10:30 pm

Redfred Banned   Join Date: May 3, 2013 Posts: 8 Religion: Christ follower

Re: Is Purgatory in the Bible? Quote: Originally Posted by Bodyandblood999 The law had not been dealt with while Jesus was on the way to the cross. Only after the resurrection could it be stated that "there is,therefor now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus." The only question is, are you in? If you are, either God lies, or NO condemnation EXISTS for you. That is what Paul means by saying we serve in NEWNESS OF THE SPIRIT rather than oldness of the letter--no more fear--we've been adopted by God! I fully agree that salvation is a gift by grace, and that God gives us repentance AND faith! He wants us to experience progressive sanctification. Those who know they have been FOREVER freed from fear of condemnation are the only ones equipped to be sanctified. If you tell someone they better stop coveting or ELSE!.....Paul says that causes them to sin MORE! (It did to him) The Law, when it comes in contact with a sinner, actually stirs up sin! (Romans 7) It doesn't work for preventing sin. But LEGALISTS think it does. And I agree that only those who continue in the faith were really saved. Praying a prayer or getting baptized doesn't save you. Faith in the blood of the cross saves you, and it regenerates and a new heart is created that WILL produce good works, more and more. Amen bro. Until I was born again, I struggled and strive, but failed and didn't really love him. Now....!