working4christ2

evans77 · #1 Jul 28, '13, 12:38 pm

Do saved Christians go to heaven? I mean even if they keep sinning even if by accident but they are saved because they received Christ and believe.

CrispSnowflake · #2 Jul 28, '13, 12:41 pm

Well, it depends what you mean by 'saved'. We also have to 'abide' in Christ everyday through prayer, good works, etc.

evans77 · #3 Jul 28, '13, 12:52 pm

One of my Christian friends say good works do not get us into Heaven? Even our good works are dirty rags to the Lord. Can anyone provide passages from the bible to dispute the once saved always saved theory? And that just believing in Jesus our Saviour is not enough and we need some good works too? It is just for a debate.

TK421 · #4 Jul 28, '13, 1:08 pm

Well if you want to zone in, James and Jude. Jude is pretty much singlehandedly dedicated to condemning nominal Christians that live in uninhibited immorality.

Honestly, the entire Bible really.

cheezey · #5 Jul 28, '13, 1:13 pm

I'll try to find a way to let you know, cuz I won't know til I get there.
Just kidding.
If hell is a willful "No" to His love and repentence to Him, why would they not go to heaven?
If hell is something else, I dunno.

ellzeena · #6 Jul 28, '13, 1:19 pm

Some (perhaps most, dunno) Protestant denominations ask this question about us as Roman Catholics. They do not understand the sacrifice of the Mass and say we repeatedly crucify Christ, millions of times a day, throughout the world.

Interestingly this following quotation answers your question:

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

In other words: saying I accept Jesus "into my heart" is a "work", it does not "save" me as is taught in Protestant denominations (some, not all).

And:

James 2: 14-26
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

This reminds us of the parable of the talents. If we have faith, we have no other choice but to act on it because of the love of God is foremost in our hearts and minds (or, should be) and we want to work for Him, don't we; we want to make a difference, we want to serve Him. If I say I have faith, if I turn around three times, throw salt over my shoulder, and spit on the ground and get full immersion baptism (exaggerations of course), but I do not ACT as Jesus expects me to act, then my "faith" is "dead" because it bears no fruit, like the servant who buried his talent so as to return it in its original amount.

IMHO.

z_0101 · #7 Jul 28, '13, 1:42 pm

There are maybe 100+ threads on this topic here on CA:

I think that this falls under the parable of the sowing of the seeds:
(You remember, some on the path, some on the rocks, weeds, soil).

What is in their hearts and how they lived their lives will determine the entry into heaven. Do/did they have a defensible ignorance?

I for one pray for them all and ask for mercy on their souls as I ask for mercy for my family, my friends, and myself. Hopefully, they'll pray for me as I pass thru purgatory (maybe I'll be spared that step!

- more than likely not; but I'm trying!

)

However, perhaps the better answer to your question can be found here:
(note: emphasis mine)

Quote:

Salvation Outside the Church (Click Here)

The following quotations from the Church Fathers give the straight story. They show that the early Church held the same position on this as the contemporary Church does—that is, while it isnormatively necessary to be a Catholic to be saved (see CCC 846; Vatican II, Lumen Gentium 14), there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).

Notice that the same Fathers who declare the normative necessity of being Catholic also declare the possibility of salvation for some who are not Catholics.

These can be saved by what later came to be known as "baptism of blood" or " baptism of desire" (for more on this subject, see the Fathers Know Best tract

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mkb617 · #8 Jul 28, '13, 1:48 pm

The only one who decides who goes to heaven is God!!

wmscott · #9 Jul 28, '13, 1:50 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by evans77

One of my Christian friends say good works do not get us into Heaven? Even our good works are dirty rags to the Lord. Can anyone provide passages from the bible to dispute the once saved always saved theory? And that just believing in Jesus our Saviour is not enough and we need some good works too? It is just for a debate.

Try reading ST. MATTHEW - Chapter 25; 35 - 46; if this does not convey good works i do not know what does.

Also 1 CORINTHIANS - Chapter 13:13 And now there remain, faith, hope, charity, these three: but the greatest of these is charity. why is Charity, or as some translate it to Love, greater than Faith?

R_C · #10 Jul 28, '13, 2:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by evans77

Do saved Christians go to heaven? I mean even if they keep sinning even if by accident but they are saved because they received Christ and believe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evans77

One of my Christian friends say good works do not get us into Heaven? Even our good works are dirty rags to the Lord. Can anyone provide passages from the bible to dispute the once saved always saved theory? And that just believing in Jesus our Saviour is not enough and we need some good works too? It is just for a debate.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" James 2:24, etc.).

This means two fundamental things:
- Christians don't go to heaven by default (lest we be like the pharisee of Luke 18:11)
- non-Christians in invincible ignorance can go to heaven (the penitent publican of Luke 18:9-14)

A comparison of the Catholic vs. protestant belief of salvation: part 1, part 2

Some more: 3, 4

As for Christians not in full communion with the Church and non-Christians, the most recent understandings can be summarized by these statements of John Paul II and Benedict XVI:

Quote:

[T]here is salvation only and exclusively in Christ. The Church inasmuch as it is the Body of Christ, is simply an instrument of this salvation [...] People are saved through the Church, they are saved in the Church, but they always are saved by the grace of Christ. Besides formal membership in the Church, the sphere of salvation can also include other forms of relation to the Church. Paul VI expressed this same teaching in his first encyclical, Ecclesiam Suam, when he spoke of the various circles of the dialogue of salvation, which are the same as those indicated by the Council as the spheres of membership in and of relation to the Church. This is the authentic meaning of the well-known statement 'Outside the Church there is no salvation'.

Christ “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community”, that from its beginning and throughout the centuries has always existed and will always exist, and in which alone are found all the elements that Christ himself instituted. “This one Church of Christ, which we confess in the Creed as one, holy, catholic and apostolic […]. This Church, constituted and organised in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the successor of Peter and the Bishops in communion with him”

It is possible, according to Catholic doctrine, to affirm correctly that the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them. Nevertheless [the] “one” Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

The use of this expression, which indicates the full identity of the Church of Christ with the Catholic Church, does not change the doctrine on the Church. Rather, it comes from and brings out more clearly the fact that there are “numerous elements of sanctification and of truth” which are found outside her structure, but which “as gifts properly belonging to the Church of Christ, impel towards Catholic Unity”.

cheezey · #11 Jul 28, '13, 2:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mkb617

The only one who decides who goes to heaven is God!!

now there ya go!!

njlisa · #12 Jul 28, '13, 2:34 pm

I was raised a Baptist. And we were taught that we were sealed forever by God once we had accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior.

Ephesians 4:30:

And do not grieve the holy Spirit of God, with which you were sealed for the day of redemption.

We were also told to do good deeds not to earn our salvation, but to obey Jesus out of gratitude for our Salvation. Further, we were instructed to follow the Word of God and its precepts.

I think you'll find Born Again Christians who live lives every bit as righteous as good Catholics. They're just coming at it from a different perspective.

I learned many truths from my Baptist background ... and I got a very good foundation in Scripture.

**thistle** · #13 Jul 28, '13, 6:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by evans77

Do saved Christians go to heaven? I mean even if they keep sinning even if by accident but they are saved because they received Christ and believe.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mortal-sin
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-forgiveness-of-sins

fred conty · #14 Jul 28, '13, 7:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thistle

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/mortal-sin
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-forgiveness-of-sins

These are excellent tracts, especially the first one on OSAS.

It isn't that non-catholics are not good people or very genuine in their belief. I give them A+ in many cases for their good will and effort. But regardless of all these wonderful traits, they have drunk poison and it may have disasterous effects.

Just a thought.

Remember_Me · #15 Jul 28, '13, 7:16 pm

Yes! "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:9-10, 13

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loved me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." John 14:21

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