working4christ2

SteveVH · #1 Mar 8, '11, 9:24 am

One, very common theme that floats around this forum is the notion that the only thing that really matters is a relationship with Jesus or God. While there is obviously some truth to this, IMO it is used as an excuse to go ahead and believe anything we wish.

Nearly all posters on this forum attend one church or another. Why? What does "Church" mean to to you. Is it important that you attend this particular church or is any "Christian" church just fine as long as it helps me have that personal relationship?

I propose that Christ started a Church for one purpose; the union of God with man in Jesus Christ. The Church, then, is not just an institution which exists to lead people to salvation, but, in truth, is itself salvation. It is through His Church that the divine offices of priest, prophet and king are communicated to His people. As I said, there is truth in the notion that all that matters is a relationship with God, but it was Christ who decided that this "relationship" with him would forever mean a relationship with His Church.

I welcome your comments.

Bran Stark · #2 Mar 8, '11, 10:04 am

What does "Church" mean? Much. On the most basic level the word means any assembly of believers, no matter how small. A local congregation. St. Paul writes "unto the church of God which is at Corinth" in his first Epistle. Next we get to the plane of different organizations; I won't say "denomination" since you people can get ever-so-picky about it. Hehe. So we have the Reformed Church in America, the United Methodist Church, and the Catholic Church. And finally we reach the top. Now there is but one Church, the Bride of Christ, which all believers belong to. "Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

I clearly have no choice about the highest level; I believe in Christ, hence am of His Church. But as far as specific organizations go, I'd say all Christians have the obligation to seek out the one which is more perfectly following our Master's teachings, all the while mourning our sins which have caused division into separate organizations in the first place, and working to bring them to unity under the Truth.

Publisher · #3 Mar 8, '11, 10:17 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVH

One, very common theme that floats around this forum is the notion that the only thing that really matters is a relationship with Jesus or God. While there is obviously some truth to this, IMO it is used as an excuse to go ahead and believe anything we wish.

Nearly all posters on this forum attend one church or another. Why? What does "Church" mean to to you. Is it important that you attend this particular church or is any "Christian" church just fine as long as it helps me have that personal relationship?

I propose that Christ started a Church for one purpose; the union of God with man in Jesus Christ. The Church, then, is not just an institution which exists to lead people to salvation, but, in truth, is itself salvation. It is through His Church that the divine offices of priest, prophet and king are communicated to His people. As I said, there is truth in the notion that all that matters is a relationship with God, but it was Christ who decided that this "relationship" with him would forever mean a relationship with His Church.

I welcome your comments.

I don't believe Jesus started a "church".....he called those who follow him and share in His incarnation the Church.....those whom He has redeemed are members of His Church, joined to it through the baptism of the Holy Spirit through the regeneration of our hearts...we become "new creatures"...all who have become "new creatures in Christ" and who walk "in the Spirit" are members of His Church.

The Church meets together to worship and praise Him...to edify one another and perfect our sanctification TOGETHER in community.....all who attend First Day Meeting aren't necessarily members of His Church....but the Church....the Assembly of believers....meets together.

PJM · #4 Mar 8, '11, 10:30 am

Quote:

=Publisher;7629345]I don't believe Jesus started a "church".....he called those who follow him and share in His incarnation the Church.....those whom He has redeemed are members of His Church, joined to it through the baptism of the Holy Spirit through the regeneration of our hearts...we become "new creatures"...all who have become "new creatures in Christ" and who walk "in the Spirit" are members of His Church.

The Church meets together to worship and praise Him...to edify one another and perfect our sanctification TOGETHER in community.....all who attend First Day Meeting aren't necessarily members of His Church....but the Church....the Assembly of believers....meets together.

Interestering position you hold there my friend. Is your church a "bible church?"

How are WE to understand these Teachings? Keeping in MIND that this particular discussion point evolves around Jesus "founding a church," or as you understand: NOT founding a church.

Matt. 16:15-19 " Matt.16 Verses 15 to 19 "He [Jesus] said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 10:16 [Jesus Speaking]"And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd."

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. “

Eph. 4: 4 -8“There is one body [Only One Church] and one Spirit, [Only One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, [Only One God] ONLY one faith, [Only One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism,[ By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. "

Thanks,

God Bless,
Pat

SteveVH · #5 Mar 8, '11, 10:55 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bran Stark

What does "Church" mean? Much. On the most basic level the word means any assembly of believers, no matter how small. A local congregation. St. Paul writes "unto the church of God which is at Corinth" in his first Epistle. Next we get to the plane of different organizations; I won't say "denomination" since you people can get ever-so-picky about it.

First of all, the word "denomination" doesn't bother me at all, as long as it is not applied to the Catholic Church. We, by definition, truly are not a denomination. I would agree that the dictionary definition of church as an "assembly of believers" would be accurate, but Jesus Christ himself founded a Church, did he not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bran Stark

So we have the Reformed Church in America, the United Methodist Church, and the Catholic Church. And finally we reach the top. Now there is but one Church, the Bride of Christ, which all believers belong to.

When you say to "which all believers belong" do you mean regardless of what they believe, or is there at least some standard to which you would hold them? And who determines that standard? In your quote below Christ refers to the church, not Churches.

"Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bran Stark

I clearly have no choice about the highest level; I believe in Christ, hence am of His Church. But as far as specific organizations go, I'd say all Christians have the obligation to seek out the one which is more perfectly following our Master's teachings, all the while mourning our sins which have caused division into separate organizations in the first place, and working to bring them to unity under the Truth.

There are those who claim to believe in Christ who do not believe He is divine, or who believe He is another god, seperate from the Father. Would these qualify as "believing in Christ"? And who determines who is more perfectly following the "Masters teachings"?

I do appreciate your comments.

SteveVH · #6 Mar 8, '11, 11:08 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Publisher

I don't believe Jesus started a "church".....he called those who follow him and share in His incarnation the Church.....those whom He has redeemed are members of His Church, joined to it through the baptism of the Holy Spirit through the regeneration of our hearts...we become "new creatures"...all who have become "new creatures in Christ" and who walk "in the Spirit" are members of His Church.

Well, I think Scripture itself disagrees with your position. "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Publisher

The Church meets together to worship and praise Him...to edify one another and perfect our sanctification TOGETHER in community.....all who attend First Day Meeting aren't necessarily members of His Church....but the Church....the Assembly of believers....meets together.

And what if, in the Church that Christ founded, He meant for us to meet in order to hear His word and eat of His flesh and drink of His blood in the sacrament of the Eucharist? If that is true, is just meeting together sufficient? Would you not agree that there is a truth about Jesus Christ, His identity, His purpose and His mission, and that to deviate from that truth would be to deviate from Christ? Does truth matter?

Thanks Publisher, I appreciate your perspective and look forward to your answers.

Nicea325 · #7 Mar 8, '11, 12:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVH

One, very common theme that floats around this forum is the notion that the only thing that really matters is a relationship with Jesus or God. While there is obviously some truth to this, IMO it is used as an excuse to go ahead and believe anything we wish.

Nearly all posters on this forum attend one church or another. Why? What does "Church" mean to to you. Is it important that you attend this particular church or is any "Christian" church just fine as long as it helps me have that personal relationship?

I propose that Christ started a Church for one purpose; the union of God with man in Jesus Christ. The Church, then, is not just an institution which exists to lead people to salvation, but, in truth, is itself salvation. It is through His Church that the divine offices of priest, prophet and king are communicated to His people. As I said, there is truth in the notion that all that matters is a relationship with God, but it was Christ who decided that this "relationship" with him would forever mean a relationship with His Church.

I welcome your comments.

The Mystical Body of Jesus...

Bran Stark · #8 Mar 8, '11, 12:35 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVH

First of all, the word "denomination" doesn't bother me at all, as long as it is not applied to the Catholic Church.

Hehe that's kind of my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVH

We, by definition, truly are not a denomination. I would agree that the dictionary definition of church as an "assembly of believers" would be accurate, but Jesus Christ himself founded a Church, did he not?

My dictionary tells me a denomination is "a religious organization uniting in a single legal and administrative body a number of local congregations". Now we can quibble about the etymology of the word making it inappropriate to refer to the original object from which others broke away, but I really think that's childish bickering. Were I to become a Catholic, I'd still have no problem with calling Holy Mother Church a "denomination".

And yes, Our Lord certainly did found a single church. We confess the same Creed: "I believe One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church", and merely disagree on the nature of the contraption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVH

When you say to "which all believers belong" do you mean regardless of what they believe, or is there at least some standard to which you would hold them? And who determines that standard? In your quote below Christ refers to the church, not Churches.

God determines the standard, of course, so we mortals will try to discover it, if we know what's best for us. And I agree - the Bride of Christ is one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVH

There are those who claim to believe in Christ who do not believe He is divine, or who believe He is another god, seperate from the Father. Would these qualify as "believing in Christ"? And who determines who is more perfectly following the "Masters teachings"?

I'd say any believer in Jesus, no matter how heretical, is in some way a member of the Church. Just like you Catholics so graciously allow that people like me are somehow in "imperfect communion" with the the See of St. Peter.

As for who determines, well obviously individual people will have to make that division based on their consciences. We're hardly alone in this - Catholics attach themselves to their Church because they believe, to the best of their knowledge, that they are doing the right thing. And were I ever to become a Catholic, it would be because I myself sincerely think I'm following the will of God in doing so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVH

I do appreciate your comments.

Why thank you! It's always nice to be appreciated.

Publisher · #9 Mar 8, '11, 2:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

Interestering position you hold there my friend. Is your church a "bible church?"

How are WE to understand these Teachings? Keeping in MIND that this particular discussion point evolves around Jesus "founding a church," or as you understand: NOT founding a church.

Matt. 16:15-19 " Matt.16 Verses 15 to 19 "He [Jesus] said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 10:16 [Jesus Speaking]"And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd."

Eph. 2:19-20 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. “

Eph. 4: 4 -8“There is one body [Only One Church] and one Spirit, [Only One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, [Only One God] ONLY one faith, [Only One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism,[ By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. "

Thanks,

God Bless,
Pat

I attend "Meeting".....the Church "meets" each First Day....since I'm a member of The Church by virtue of my One Baptism of the Holy Spirit....and scripture came through the hands of other members of His Church.....so I would have to say "Yes, I belong to a Bible Church."

SteveVH · #10 Mar 8, '11, 2:51 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bran Stark

Hehe that's kind of my point.
My dictionary tells me a denomination is "a religious organization uniting in a single legal and administrative body a number of local congregations". Now we can quibble about the etymology of the word making it inappropriate to refer to the original object from which others broke away, but I really think that's childish bickering. Were I to become a Catholic, I'd still have no problem with calling Holy Mother Church a "denomination".

Why would sticking to the etymology of the word be childish? Isn't it more descriptive of the actual meaning of the word? I think it be more childish to define it according to what we wish it meant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bran Stark

And yes, Our Lord certainly did found a single church. We confess the same Creed: "I believe One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church", and merely disagree on the nature of the contraption.

Jesus could very well have just written down exactly what He wanted us to believe and said "I will leave you all to your best judgment". But He didn't. Instead He started a Church. Why do you think He did that? Not only did He start HIS Church, he made promises concerning HIS Church. He sent the Holy Spirit to guide it into all truth. The faith is not ours to create. He did not say "go out and build your own church". Again, I ask, does the truth matter?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bran Stark

I'd say any believer in Jesus, no matter how heretical, is in some way a member of the Church. Just like you Catholics so graciously allow that people like me are somehow in "imperfect communion" with the the See of St. Peter.

Then there really is no reason to seek the truth. If I believe that Jesus is from the moon and wishes us to eat green cheese in order to be in communion with him, would that be fine in your book?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bran Stark

As for who determines, well obviously individual people will have to make that division based on their consciences. We're hardly alone in this - Catholics attach themselves to their Church because they believe, to the best of their knowledge, that they are doing the right thing. And were I ever to become a Catholic, it would be because I myselfsincerely think I'm following the will of God in doing so.

There is no virtue in just making a decision. We are obligated to make an informed decision based upon both faith and reason. In other words, if Jesus really meant that "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you will have no life in you." and you decide, based upon your own judgment, that this is not what He really meant, you will still suffer the consequences. We cannot create our own reality. That is why Jesus started His own Church; to teach us and guide us into all truth. He said He would not leave us orphans. He remains with us, in the Church, so that we do not fall into error. If it didn't matter whether or not we fell into error then there would be no reason to start a Church in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bran Stark

Why thank you! It's always nice to be appreciated.

You're quite welcome.

Evan · #11 Mar 8, '11, 3:10 pm

Church. At different times, with different people, in different discussions, it means different things.

From the top:

Church is the Body of Christ gathered through all time and space. Past Present Future.
Church is divided into 3 parts, so I may be speaking of the Church triumphant: Those already in heaven with Him
Or the Church suffering, the Church in purgatory preparing to join Him in His glory.
Or the Church militant, those on earth who believe and obey the Word of God.

Or the Hierarchical Church: Pope, Bishops, Priests, Deacons, Laity

Or the Local Church headed by a Bishop. In my case, the Church of Western Washington

Or the parish, made up of it's members
Or the building in which I worship

Or a Church of members in one of the Churches sui juris of the Catholic Church
Or an ecclesial community, not in perfect union with the Church but through some mysterious way connected
Or a non-christian community that calls themselves church, I accord them that respect when talking with them to use their terminology (eg LDS)

USUALLY you can tell by context. But sometimes I have the clearly state what I am talking about.

Dokimas · #12 Mar 8, '11, 3:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

Eph. 4: 4 -8“There is one body [Only One Church] and one Spirit, [Only One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, [Only One God] ONLY one faith, [Only One set of doctrine and dogma] one baptism,[ By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. "

Thanks,

God Bless,
Pat

One Body = not a specific church but the collection of ALL believers.

One Spirit = the Holy Spirit

One faith = in Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

One bapatism = of the Holy Spirit;

Lu 3:16 John answered, saying to all, "I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Notice there are two baptisms. Only one saves: the one Jesus does.

Sufjon · #13 Mar 8, '11, 5:13 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVH

One, very common theme that floats around this forum is the notion that the only thing that really matters is a relationship with Jesus or God. While there is obviously some truth to this, IMO it is used as an excuse to go ahead and believe anything we wish.

Nearly all posters on this forum attend one church or another. Why? What does "Church" mean to to you. Is it important that you attend this particular church or is any "Christian" church just fine as long as it helps me have that personal relationship?

I propose that Christ started a Church for one purpose; the union of God with man in Jesus Christ. The Church, then, is not just an institution which exists to lead people to salvation, but, in truth, is itself salvation. It is through His Church that the divine offices of priest, prophet and king are communicated to His people. As I said, there is truth in the notion that all that matters is a relationship with God, but it was Christ who decided that this "relationship" with him would forever mean a relationship with His Church.

I welcome your comments.

That's an interesting question. To me it's any place I happen to be.

Your friend,
Sufjon

Bran Stark · #14 Mar 8, '11, 6:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVH

Why would sticking to the etymology of the word be childish? Isn't it more descriptive of the actual meaning of the word? I think it be more childish to define it according to what we wish it meant.

Isn't the very fact that we're no longer talking about definitions but etymologies suggesting that we're entering the realm of the unnecessarily technical? In common English speech, "denomination" means any religious group, Catholic or no. So Catholics railing against the word remind me of the ever-so-annoying habit of some atheists who refuse to capitalize the word "God" to make an impudent point about their disbelief in Him. Why can't we just all follow universal - dare I say catholic - usage, recognizing that it says nothing for or against the rightness of particular groups?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVH

Jesus could very well have just written down exactly what He wanted us to believe and said "I will leave you all to your best judgment". But He didn't. Instead He started a Church. Why do you think He did that? Not only did He start HIS Church, he made promises concerning HIS Church. He sent the Holy Spirit to guide it into all truth. The faith is not ours to create. He did not say "go out and build your own church". Again, I ask, does the truth matter?

Of course the truth matters. It matters tremendously, in fact so much that, as compelling as the notion of union with Rome may be, I have not joined the Catholic Church... since I do not believe it is true! I'm a bit baffled why you seem to be speaking against acting according to your best judgement. I mean obviously, in the cosmic level, only God's opinions matter and ours are worthless. But down here on Earth, we are wandering about in the dark with our own sinful eyes - in the first person, not the third person. And yet from that perspective we must attempt to find the Second Person.

As your own Catechism says: Moral conscience, present at the heart of the person, enjoins him at the appropriate moment to do good and to avoid evil. It also judges particular choices, approving those that are good and denouncing those that are evil. It bears witness to the authority of truth in reference to the supreme Good to which the human person is drawn, and it welcomes the commandments. When he listens to his conscience, the prudent man can hear God speaking. (CCC 1777)

Now I've naturally terribly less prudence than I ought to, sinner that I am. But so do we all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVH

There is no virtue in just making a decision. We are obligated to make an informed decision based upon both faith and reason. In other words, if Jesus really meant that "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you will have no life in you." and you decide, based upon your own judgment, that this is not what He really meant, you will still suffer the consequences.

Well I fully agree with that statement of Christ, though I have different theories about just how and where said eating and drinking occurs. But yes, once you make your choice, you must answer for it on the Last Day. And while there is such a thing as "invincible ignorance", pure lack of knowledge can merely mean sloth during searching and is hardly an excuse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveVH

We cannot create our own reality. That is why Jesus started His own Church; to teach us and guide us into all truth. He said He would not leave us orphans. He remains with us, in the Church, so that we do not fall into error. If it didn't matter whether or not we fell into error then there would be no reason to start a Church in the first place.

I don't argue with a single word here.

elvisman · #15 Mar 8, '11, 7:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Publisher

I don't believe Jesus started a "church".....he called those who follow him and share in His incarnation the Church.....those whom He has redeemed are members of His Church, joined to it through the baptism of the Holy Spirit through the regeneration of our hearts...we become "new creatures"...all who have become "new creatures in Christ" and who walk "in the Spirit" are members of His Church.

The Church meets together to worship and praise Him...to edify one another and perfect our sanctification TOGETHER in community.....all who attend First Day Meeting aren't necessarily members of His Church....but the Church....the Assembly of believers....meets together.

This is inconsistent.

Jesus redeemed ALL of mankind. Every person who has ever lived is living and ever WILL live has been redeemed (paid for). Not all have been or will be saved.

So, by saying that "those whom He has redeemed are members of His Church" - you are stating something that is not entirely true. SOME of those who he has redeemed are part of his Church.

working4christ2

Friday, June 7, 2013

What does "Church" mean to you?---elvisman Banned

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